May 19, 2024

ALISON BEARD: Welcome to the HBR IdeaCast from Harvard Industry Assessment. I’m Alison Beard.

Our objective in this display is to deliver you the most efficient idea management on managing groups, organizations, and your occupation. This week, we’re providing you with a style of every other HBR display, The New International of Paintings. On this video interview sequence, which will also be discovered on hbr.org, editor-in-chief, Adi Ignatius, speaks with most sensible leaders about how their organizations are dealing with nowadays’s largest demanding situations.

And on this dialog, he’s joined via LinkedIn CEO, Ryan Roslansky. The platform now has 875 million contributors and counting, and Roslansky credit that good fortune in large part to the corporate’s sturdy tradition and transparent values. He speaks with Adi about the whole lot from pandemic diversifications to the talents he needs to look in ability. Right here’s the interview.

ADI IGNATIUS: Let’s simply bounce proper in. I imply, some of the questions I really like to invite everyone is, how did you develop into this individual? Let us know just a little bit about your background and possibly one or two pivotal moments that led you to changing into now CEO of one of the essential social networks on the earth.

RYAN ROSLANSKY:  Yeah, neatly once more, Adi, thank you for having me. I’m an enormous fan of this system, and this can be a true honor to be the CEO of LinkedIn, particularly via what’s a gorgeous pivotal time on the earth of labor.

Now, I don’t know if there’s one or two moments that I’d level to, however I might more than likely level to 3 issues that experience were given me right here. Primary is success. I used to be born on the proper time to the correct set of fogeys that had been loving and being concerned and taught me the price of labor and set me up with a perfect training. In order that used to be primary.

Quantity two may be success. I used to be fortunate to be a freshman in faculty in 1996 when the web used to be simply beginning to get going and meet a few individuals who, in combination we began an organization, taught myself the best way to code, and simply used to be fortunate to more or less be in that position at the moment and in point of fact be informed in regards to the web and find out about generation.

After which quantity 3 is if truth be told success as neatly. So I used to be fortunate that as a junior product supervisor a very long time in the past at Yahoo, I had the chance to paintings and meet a gentleman via the identify of Jeff Weiner who would pass directly to develop into the CEO of LinkedIn. I got here with him as his first worker, and there’s been a large number of onerous paintings and alternatives alongside the way in which, but if you are taking a large step again on it all, I believe success, success and success had been lovely pivotal to getting me to the location that I’m in nowadays.

ADI IGNATIUS: In order that’s our first takeaway for our audience. Simply sit down again and get fortunate. No, however you’re being very modest, and clearly, you’ve created alternatives the place then success may paintings your approach. In order that’s nice. I do know you communicate so much about tradition and values at LinkedIn. I’d love to grasp regardless that, what does that imply to you, if truth be told, in the case of operating this a success trade? All of us use the ones phrases. We all know they’re essential. However what does it in point of fact imply to you?

RYAN ROSLANSKY: Yeah, I imply, it’s a scorching matter at the moment, and let me percentage why I believe it’s a scorching matter, rightfully so. In the event you check out what’s took place over the past couple of years throughout the pandemic, each corporate used to be thrown into this want to in point of fact reconsider how the corporate works. Will we paintings remotely? Will we paintings hybrid? Vaccines, no vaccines, day without work, in place of business, and so forth. And what everybody’s if truth be told doing whilst you’re rethinking how your corporate works is you’re rethinking your tradition and your values. That’s what resulted in a factor that we name the nice ability reshuffle during the last couple of years isn’t just corporations are rethinking how they paintings, however workers are fascinated by now not simplest why they paintings or the place they paintings, however how they paintings normally.

For us, we outline tradition because the collective character of our group. It’s who we’re, however extra importantly, it’s who we aspire to be. Each and every group has a character. And it’s in point of fact essential, no less than in my trust, to outline what that tradition and what the ones values must be at your corporate with a view to lend a hand this basis be sturdy, to make the correct choices on most sensible of it. And I believe a large number of corporations at the moment are simply, rightfully so, as they undergo this nice reshuffle and this new global of labor, redefining what it way to paintings at their corporate, redefining the values which might be had to make choices, redefining how they need to paintings.

And I led the corporate a few 12 months in the past via an workout to reconsider or to make stronger our tradition and values. And I’ve to let you know, it used to be a in point of fact tricky workout for me. I’ve been on the corporate for over 13 years. Tradition and values are embedded in the whole lot that we do. It used to be the one tradition and values that I’d ever recognized. However we discovered that it used to be an overly precious workout, as a result of one of the vital tradition and values and the phrases that we used, they had been antiquated within the new global of labor.

So we took an overly principled method, an overly considerate procedure, concerned all of the corporate in rethinking what’s essential to us as an organization. Who’re we? Who will we aspire to be? And we made a few adjustments and improvements to our set of tradition and values. And I believe it’s in point of fact benefited us neatly as a result of on a daily basis there’s kind of 20,000 workers at LinkedIn. Folks want to make choices, and you have got to come back again to one thing not unusual, a not unusual framework upon which to make the ones choices. And I think nice in regards to the tradition and values that we’ve laid out that’s going to lend a hand us transfer into the long run at the moment. And I do know a large number of corporations are doing the similar additionally.

ADI IGNATIUS: So that you’re speaking about what you might be, then how essential is the place you might be? How essential is it that persons are provide to ascertain and construct on these kinds of cultural definitions and values?

RYAN ROSLANSKY: So the the place is attention-grabbing, and the place is, I don’t care who you might be, or the place you’re main at the moment on the earth, that is the query that everybody is calling themselves. So that is the place tradition and values is in point of fact essential. When you’re making a tricky resolution like, the place must our corporate paintings, you don’t need it to be some subjective factor. You need it to be constructed on most sensible of a basis.

So certainly one of our values is, we believe and care about each and every different as a result of that’s the price in the case of how we make choices within the corporate. We were given to a place of the place we paintings that’s according to that believe and that care. We believe each and every different to paintings the place it really works highest for us and our groups. That’s our hybrid paintings coverage.

I’m now not your dad. I’m now not your babysitter. I believe you to get your activity achieved according to the place it really works right for you. And we’ve noticed a large number of good fortune. Our places of work are open. Numerous workers come into the place of business. We’ve got the nice equipment that lend a hand collaboration and video conferencing make it simple, however we’ve discovered that we will achieve success as an organization according to that paintings coverage. Once more, and it’s rooted in our values. It doesn’t paintings for each corporate, however according to who we’re and who we aspire to be, that’s how we function LinkedIn.

ADI IGNATIUS: In order that’s lovely identical, I believe, to what we’re doing at Harvard Industry Assessment. And it’s all about flexibility. However there are many corporations, as you advised, who they don’t purchase that. And there’s nonetheless a terror that if employees aren’t more or less there and provide that someway they gained’t be giving their all. What could be your recommendation to people who find themselves considering that approach?

RYAN ROSLANSKY: Smartly, I imply, at the start, I in point of fact return to tradition and values. And there’s now not a proper or mistaken approach. It’s the kind of corporate you wish to have to run, the kind of corporate you wish to have to be, and that paintings taste has to suit that.

However I will be able to let you know one thing attention-grabbing. I used to be not too long ago in London with Microsoft CEO, Satya Nadella, and we had been discussing with corporations in London this in point of fact attention-grabbing dynamic that got here out of Microsoft information. 87% of workers record that they’re productive at paintings in a hybrid paintings atmosphere at the moment, but 85% of managers consider that their workers don’t seem to be being productive. And it’s what Satya coined as productiveness paranoia.

And I believe what’s in point of fact happening there’s when everybody used to be within the place of business years in the past, the activity of a supervisor, you’d stroll round. That’s the way you’d see if any person used to be productive or getting paintings achieved or being within the place of business. So a large number of the function of a supervisor used to be simply to just remember to’re there, to just remember to’re bodily provide. And we transfer to a hybrid global that calls for a far other control and management taste. I if truth be told assume there’s a large number of new drive and finding out and a unique frame of mind that has to head upon managers on this time the place you’ll’t simply center of attention on any person being within the place of business. You’ll’t floor your self in bodily presence being whether or not or now not any person is being productive and efficient. It must be according to whether or not or now not any person is being efficient on the activity. In order that calls for primary, making sure that when you’re a supervisor, you’re very transparent. You’ve gotten readability on what a task involves. Why do I’ve this function initially? And what’s required for the individual on this function to achieve success?

After which in the long run, you wish to have to concentrate on results. You wish to have to concentrate on whether or not or now not that individual is being a success within the function because it’s been laid out as opposed to whether or not or now not they’re in or out of the place of business. And we’re going via this procedure at LinkedIn to lend a hand managers perceive this and teach managers on it. It’s now not a very simple transition for any individual, however I believe with a view to achieve success in a hybrid global, it’s in point of fact all about managers and leaders considering otherwise about their function, and in point of fact, good fortune according to results as an alternative of time in place of business.

ADI IGNATIUS: So past managing the type of hybrid query, this turns out like a tricky time to be a pacesetter. You were given recession looming, possibly. You’ve gotten inflation, for sure. Political uncertainty. It seems like wave after wave of social upheaval. What does it take to be a a success trade chief now on this advanced context?

RYAN ROSLANSKY: Yeah, I imply, you’re completely proper, and you’ll’t simplest be a pacesetter when the solar is shining, and the solar is for sure now not shining at the present time. So I believe the important thing, it’s in point of fact about uncertainty. Sure, it’s difficult, however I believe the correct leaders which might be going to in point of fact be above in all of this are those that see this as a chance. Individuals who get excellent at managing throughout the cycles, they remember that they’re enjoying in the correct markets. They perceive the place to set themselves up for good fortune.

And it’s a word I’ve been the use of round adaptive management. You’ll be adaptive or you’ll be reactive. I imply, believe me. Every day, there are 10 new choices that you must make at the moment as a CEO that you just by no means have needed to make sooner than to your existence, and nobody’s needed to lead them to sooner than. And so the query is, do you try to get forward of it in an adaptive approach? Or do you let it occur to you?

So I believe adaptive management is in point of fact rooted in 3 issues. Primary, you’ll come to a decision to play up or play down. Numerous folks, when one thing unhealthy occurs, they play down. They play to the bottom not unusual denominator. I believe adaptive leaders, they play up. They play to win. They keep sure. And regardless that the performs could also be other, they remember that they must be operating other performs. I believe reactive leaders, they’re aggressively biking between enjoying to win or hunkering down and now not in point of fact enjoying up, however getting pulled down. And I believe that that’s the mistaken method to do it. I believe adaptive leaders see those cycles as a chance. There’s all the time a chance in a few of this, particularly as there’s uncertainty and issues are shifting round as opposed to trade is a few more or less tax or a burden to be handled.

I believe remaining, however now not least, is solely continuously pivoting. Adaptive leaders continuously pivot. They iterate. They alter. As an alternative of, I believe, reactive leaders, they over-rotate, they usually thrash. And normally, it’s now not simple. It’s human nature to get pulled into the cycle, however the extra that you’ll keep adaptive, I believe the simpler other folks you’re going to be.

And one of the essential spaces the place I believe at the moment that we see around the world hard work marketplace the place extra adaptive considering and management is wanted is round what I’ve been calling the talents first mentality. I believe corporations that target abilities because the foreign money, corporations that shift clear of extra antiquated indicators like simplest level or pedigree or the place any person labored will lend a hand be sure that the correct folks will also be in the correct roles with the correct abilities doing the most efficient paintings. I believe it’s going to create a a lot more environment friendly, a a lot more equitable hard work marketplace, which then creates higher alternative for all. However that’s a part of that adaptive mindset shift as neatly.

ADI IGNATIUS: Let’s discuss abilities. I imply, as we’re on this new global of labor. And what’s your recommendation? What are the talents that folks must be growing in the event that they’re making an attempt to achieve the brand new global of labor place of work?

RYAN ROSLANSKY: Yeah, glance, be it as a result of Covid or virtual transformation or having a look at what’s happening within the AI house at the moment, a fourth commercial revolution, what’s in point of fact taking place, and once more, I believe at LinkedIn we’ve got in point of fact nice information to look those shifts taking place, however roles are being created and displaced at really a file tempo at the moment. So no matter your function, no matter your corporate, no matter your business, you wish to have to stay alongside of those in point of fact fast and large adjustments which might be happening. And despite the fact that you aren’t converting your activity, your activity is in all probability converting on you.

So for a ways too lengthy, we’ve used levels, oh, this individual went to this nice faculty, in order that they will have to be excellent. Or earlier corporate, this individual labored at this nice corporate, in order that they will have to know what they’re doing. Or networks, oh, I do know any person that is aware of this individual, in order that they will have to be nice at it. So we didn’t have anything else higher to do to evaluate ability. But if the hard work marketplace is shifting a lot sooner, we in point of fact want to work out one thing to concentrate on. And I believe that selection, versatile, obtainable trail is in point of fact going to be according to abilities.

And it’s now not simply if truth be told about new front to the activity marketplace. Probably the most issues we’ve been having a look at not too long ago within the LinkedIn information is the truth that if you are taking the similar function from 2015 to 2022 that existed on the earth, kind of 25% of the talents which might be required for that function have modified. It’s lovely evident that a large number of the ones are technical abilities that are actually wanted. So much is shifting more or less into the virtual house, however this is shifting.

And popping out of the pandemic, there’s one simply in point of fact attention-grabbing anecdote that I noticed within the information to turn why this might be extra precious for the arena. So when the pandemic hit on LinkedIn, we noticed a ton of meals provider employees out of labor, and that is smart. Eating places are final. No person’s stepping into. No person’s going out to consume. You’ve gotten this large pool of people who are out of labor.

At the turn aspect, essentially the most in-demand roles that we noticed get created because the pandemic kicked off had been virtual customer support roles. That makes a large number of sense. Issues are shifting extra virtual. Folks want customer support of their corporations, so they have got to ramp up on customer support brokers inside the ones roles.

Now what’s attention-grabbing is when you took the typical meals provider employee in that duration, they’d 70% of the talents which might be had to be an access degree customer support agent. Alternatively, what took place is a large number of those meals provider employees went unemployed and stayed unemployed, and a large number of those customer support jobs went unfilled as a result of there wasn’t sufficient ability to fill them. If we had simply taken a view on what are the talents important, who has the ones abilities, how are we able to lend a hand them achieve a few abilities to lend a hand them develop into hired, we’d’ve discovered ourselves in a a lot more environment friendly hard work marketplace. And you are taking a large step again, that dynamic is occurring throughout each business, activity serve as, geography, et cetera, the place there’s this hard work imbalance. In the event you had been to center of attention extra on abilities, you’d be a lot more productive and environment friendly.

ADI IGNATIUS: Yeah, attention-grabbing. So then there’s the query of keeping ability. You’re in, I guess, an overly aggressive marketplace. You’re mainly a tech corporate. You’re out in Silicon Valley and competing in opposition to different giants, looking to retain most sensible more or less engineer ability. What’s your secret, or what’s your playbook for keeping the most efficient folks?

RYAN ROSLANSKY: I don’t have any secrets and techniques apart from going again to the place we began this dialog. The important thing for me is being intentional and original about our imaginative and prescient, which is our why, and our tradition and values, which is our how. And also you draw in and retain people who find themselves impressed via why we do issues and what we do. I believe that’s the important thing to all of this, which is, you wish to have to align folks with what you do as an organization to have the most efficient team of workers, to have essentially the most retention. Folks consider in what you’re doing as an organization, they’ll keep longer. So my function is to take a look at and convey in combination essentially the most proficient set of people imaginable who care about development LinkedIn, care about development a platform that exists to create financial alternative for each member of the worldwide team of workers.

I believe one thing this is essential at the moment greater than ever as neatly, is solely figuring out that inside your corporate, it’s in point of fact essential to lend a hand folks to find their subsequent occupation and their occupation trail. So inside mobility’s only a in point of fact giant matter for us at the moment. I really consider that your subsequent highest worker is in all probability your present worker in lots of eventualities. And once more, this can be a reason, when you center of attention on abilities and perceive the talents of your current team of workers after which the place you wish to have to head as an organization, there’s simply a large number of nice paintings that may be achieved there to lend a hand current workers to find other roles inside your corporate so long as they’re aligned to the undertaking and imaginative and prescient.

ADI IGNATIUS: So I need to discuss LinkedIn just a little bit. What’s LinkedIn at this level? I imply, is it a social community? Is it a role seek platform? Is it a certified self-branding app? I imply, what’s LinkedIn?

RYAN ROSLANSKY: So LinkedIn is a platform that exists to create alternative for each member of the worldwide team of workers. And I do know that appears like a tagline, however this is if truth be told the imaginative and prescient of the corporate. It’s what we aspire to on a daily basis. We consider that the in point of fact precious method to get there, I do know you’ve spoken to Reid Hoffman up to now, who’s the founding father of LinkedIn, at the side of Allen Blue, is that we will lend a hand folks develop into extra productive and a success by way of folks. You’ll be informed from folks. You’ll rent with folks. You’ll lend a hand promote or purchase with folks. You’ll lend a hand attach and get started corporations with folks. So how will we create, on the core, a platform that is helping pros display who they’re and fasten for numerous functions?

And if we simply, we’re on a fiscal calendar as of Q1 FY23, which we simply ended our trailing 12-month income, surpassed $14 billion, which is up kind of 17% 12 months over 12 months, which is a smart testomony, particularly on this marketplace, to how undertaking vital the platform has develop into to lend a hand pros for all of the ones use circumstances.

I imply, at the moment, each unmarried minute on LinkedIn, greater than 9,000 connections are shaped, just about 10 hires are made, greater than 100 hours of finding out content material are ate up. And we’ve got a various set of industrial fashions during the ones other marketplaces of connecting folks that align to in point of fact lend a hand corporations to find price and contributors to find price.

And what’s precious, and what’s attention-grabbing about this is, and what I believe is more than likely certainly one of our core aggressive benefits is I believe at the moment, particularly in 2022, on the earth of labor that we see, I believe corporations which might be naturally aligned with doing excellent and doing neatly, they have got huge aggressive benefits inbuilt. So for firms that get started simply by that specialize in doing neatly in trade, doing excellent for the arena turns into a compromise. It’s the remaining slide of a PowerPoint presentation, or it’s the advent of a .org web page.

But if you’ll seamlessly unify doing excellent for the arena and doing neatly in trade inside the product you construct, I believe it’s an actual sturdy aggressive benefit. And once we construct merchandise at LinkedIn, folks to find jobs. They rent. They be informed abilities. They make offers. They begin corporations. It’s an ecosystem that creates price for contributors, shoppers of the arena and for LinkedIn. So I’m very happy with that ethos and function that we occupy at the moment.

ADI IGNATIUS: Prior to the interview, we introduced that we had been going to do it and solicited some questions. I’ve a query from Eileen from Palo Alto. And the query is, are you able to discuss any long-term plans you might have to make LinkedIn extra paintings pleasant? So as an example, may customers use LinkedIn for video calls, percentage their displays with trade shows and negotiations or anything? Are their ideas to make it extra this kind of the float of labor platform?

RYAN ROSLANSKY: Yeah. I imply, for numerous pros, it’s of their float of labor. So completely, for recruiters, for L&D pros, for entrepreneurs, for dealers, LinkedIn is a device that folks have open each day. Because it pertains to normal collaboration, to normal conversation, we’re very lucky to be a part of Microsoft, and I believe that Microsoft has the most efficient in breed equipment via Groups and thru Place of business, et cetera, to lend a hand folks do this more or less normal conversation and collaboration. We need to lend a hand via our merchandise, every time we will to make the ones merchandise extra precious. However that’s in point of fact for Microsoft Inc, the focal point in the case of what we do.

For LinkedIn particularly, to ensure that the arena of labor to transport ahead, to ensure that hard work markets to develop and proceed, there’s in point of fact 3, personally, 3 key issues which might be vital to get proper. One, a extra environment friendly hard work marketplace. And we’ve talked via this interview about what we’re looking to do there normally to lend a hand fit ability to alternative at huge scale in cutting edge and new techniques to lend a hand create a extra environment friendly and dynamic hard work pressure.

Quantity two is get admission to to items and services and products, and we’re in point of fact that specialize in making sure that we will deliver B2B services right into a a lot more environment friendly marketplace, very similar to how possibly a large number of client merchandise are purchased and bought. B2B is a big marketplace. B2B is a large number of corporations are representing what they do and what they promote throughout LinkedIn, however we consider we will make that a greater procedure for everybody concerned, particularly for consumers, particularly for dealers. Dealers don’t need to be sitting there sending out tens of millions of emails and spamming folks. They need to to find the correct folks to have the correct dialog for people who find themselves considering purchasing merchandise so we’re centered so much there as neatly.

And I believe the most important more or less factor that I’m interested in at the moment inside the corporate is the 3rd factor that I believe is important to get proper is solely get admission to to wisdom and data and ability development. And a product supervisor a pair days in the past went throughout the LinkedIn information and pulled this stat for me that we consider there’s an estimated 10 billion years of enjoy on LinkedIn, from the club on LinkedIn. So how will we lend a hand folks construct their id via sharing a large number of that wisdom and enjoy in new techniques and in new codecs? And at the turn aspect, lend a hand folks be informed extra via different pros to lend a hand them develop into extra productive and a success. And I believe there’s some actual price right here in us that specialize in growing the ones skilled, work-related merchandise that may lend a hand via that wisdom alternate.

For instance, we not too long ago constructed a e-newsletter product. And within the remaining six months, it’s grown to 150 million folks have subscribed to a e-newsletter on LinkedIn throughout hundreds of authors who’ve created a e-newsletter to percentage their wisdom. And we’ve began to do podcasts. We’ve got a piece of writing group that is helping curate the inside track. However for me, if we will get this basis of a thousand million pros that experience get admission to to nice wisdom that exists within the heads of alternative pros to make everybody extra productive and a success, I believe it’s going to do so much for the arena and be capable of transfer the arena ahead in an overly productive approach.

ADI IGNATIUS: This sounds lovely attention-grabbing. I believe you’ve already were given my resume up on LinkedIn, however I need to pay attention extra about this. I’s questioning, is growing a Metaverse enjoy a concern for you?

RYAN ROSLANSKY: That is every other one the place I think superb that we’re a part of the Microsoft ecosystem. Microsoft sits at the bleeding fringe of generation, particularly Metaverse generation, so we don’t want to pass out and create anything else on our personal. We will leverage a large number of what’s being constructed there.

I believe for the pro context, a pair issues could be attention-grabbing. Occasions, I latterly did a buyer tournament the place 100 folks were given in combination, and all of us placed on headsets and had a digital assembly, and I gave a keynote, and we had conversations, and we’re all more or less strolling round on this room even supposing we’re sitting at our table. And that used to be more or less cool. Folks short of to shuttle, they may be able to all get in combination and feature extra of an enjoy like that. So possibly that’s attention-grabbing. I believe occasions are attention-grabbing.

I believe finding out’s doubtlessly a perfect one as neatly, particularly extra if the generation evolves from extra frontline or hands-on finding out, that’s going to be precious for us. We’ve got a product known as LinkedIn Studying. It’s some of the biggest on-line finding out companies. It is helping folks achieve abilities, 100 hours of finding out content material are watched each minute on LinkedIn. However possibly for a few of that stuff that’s in point of fact about extra hands-on, or you must really feel such as you’re within of our surroundings to be told, which may be precious as neatly. So we’ll more or less see how that evolves. However more or less taking a backseat to all the nice innovation that’s taking place at Microsoft.

ADI IGNATIUS: This can be a time, in many ways, of upheaval for social networks. Fb, I wouldn’t say goes via upheaval, however they’re more or less redefining Meta, who they’re, what they’re, how they need to be in the market. Twitter goes via more or less a loopy duration at the moment. Are you looking to capitalize on that to make a few of this to paintings to LinkedIn’s benefit?

RYAN ROSLANSKY: No longer looking to capitalize on it. I imply, I believe a very powerful factor for us is to concentrate on… It’s humorous, I stay going again to this tradition and values, but it surely’s this sort of foundational factor for us. We center of attention on what we exist to do. We center of attention on serving to attach pros globally, serving to them to find get admission to to alternative. We’ve got huge runway forward people. We’ve got massive tams in the entire markets that we exist in. For us, the most efficient factor that we will do is solely center of attention on making LinkedIn nice in opposition to the imaginative and prescient that we have got for LinkedIn, and that’s what we get up doing on a daily basis.

ADI IGNATIUS: All proper, Ryan, that used to be attention-grabbing. I need to thanks very a lot for being our visitor on The New International of Paintings, and it used to be nice to listen to your insights.

RYAN ROSLANSKY: Thank you for having me, Adi. Admire it.

ALISON BEARD: You’ll take a look at new episodes of The New International of Paintings continue to exist LinkedIn on Wednesdays. You should definitely check in upfront at the HBR LinkedIn web page. You’ll additionally browse the episode archive on YouTube or hbr.org.

You’ll pay attention IdeaCasts and different HBR podcasts at hbr.org/podcasts. Or seek HBR in Apple Podcasts, Spotify, or anywhere you pay attention. This episode used to be produced via Mary Dooe. We get technical lend a hand from Rob Eckhardt. Hannah Bates is our audio manufacturing assistant, and Ian Fox is our audio product supervisor.

Thank you for paying attention to the HBR IdeaCast. We’ll be again with a brand new episode on Tuesday. I’m Alison Beard.